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jdmfan003 11/29/2012 09:50 AM

Build advice b16
 
So right now my b16 is stock with a ys1 trans and a stage 3 clutch, I got stage 3 bc na cams that I'm gonna put in it over the winter I'm having the head ported, and of course bc valve springs, I was wanting to build the bottom end but I think I'm just gonna replace the rings and keep the bottom end stock for now, do you guys think the motor will hold up and have a decent amount of power? Hoping for 220 whp once it's tuned

crxh22honda 11/29/2012 11:51 AM

Re: Build advice b16
 
If i remember right bc valve train kinda sucks. I would look into that if i was you. i personally think 200hp isnt gonna happen. Maybe close to it but thats it. My reason in thinking this way. Is that a stock b16 would push 145-150whp with a tune. Cams maybe 20hp with stage 3 i feel like im over guessing to. Your talking about picking up 50hp from doing a PnP. I feel like 25hp would be pushing it With that liter size and being na.

Also lets go into make believe land. 220hp on a 1.6L is gonna have no tq. Maybe 120-135tq but it will die off fast. And your hp will be all top end 9k type of shit. Spending 1500 on a pnp for that aint worth it. I would say work on the bottom end first.

Dj Technick 11/29/2012 12:10 PM

Re: Build advice b16
 
Who is porting the head, and what size cams? This will make a big factor on how much power you make. Worst case scenario is you'll lose hp and be even slower :cheers:

A bad port job will make you lose power so I hope whoever is doing it knows what they are doing or you sent it to a shop to have it done. Also cam wise, if you go with too big of a cam without the high compression for it you can also lose power that way too.

I can already tell you that you're not going to see 220 with just those mods, you'll be lucky to get 180whp.

Also why not build the bottom end now? You're kinda wasting your time and money replacing the rings if you're just going to tear it apart again to build the bottom end. Rods and pistons aren't all that expensive.

jdmfan003 11/29/2012 01:17 PM

Re: Build advice b16
 
Harveys in norwalk was gonna do the port and polish, I better invest in rods and pistons because I would be mad as hell if I did all that just to loose power, I know bc not the best but I didn't want toda cams, and I've heard skunk2 isn't all that great either, when I bought the cams it said intended for use on fully built motor the cams have fairly big lobes valve lift is half a inch, what kind of pistons would you recommend stock bore on the b16 is 81 mm I believe

crxh22honda 11/29/2012 01:36 PM

Re: Build advice b16
 
IMO I wouldnt let harveys touch any of my stuff.

jdmfan003 11/29/2012 01:45 PM

Re: Build advice b16
 
Harveys and midstate machine are really the only local machine shops that I've used or are familiar with, midstate tends to do a half ass job sometimes, I've never had a port and polish done though all harveys has really done for me is valve jobs, hot tank, pressure checks, and decks and they seem to do alright at that stuff

My goal is torque though that's what I want and to stay NA with a shot of nitrous

crxh22honda 11/29/2012 02:05 PM

Re: Build advice b16
 
My goal is tq i have a b16! :roflmao:

jdmfan003 11/29/2012 02:11 PM

Re: Build advice b16
 
Hey I'm not looking to be the best on the strip just having fun unlike you :u_r_god:mr torque

Charlie Moua 11/29/2012 08:42 PM

Re: Build advice b16
 
Here's my thoughts on how i look at doing B16 NA.


1) 170-175whp 115tq
just have fun with the car, don't worry about impressing others
stock block b16
s2 tuner 1 or gsc N1 cams (pretty mild)
rocketmotorsport snapfit dual valvesprings $155
stock retainers& seats
itr , blox , skunk2 IM
stock tb
PLM small tube tri-y



2) +215whp 124tq... lol
cnc gsr head (+320cfm head)
+1mm intake valves
pro2 cams (must be degreed)
rocketmotorsports valvesprings & rsx type s retainers
PX MAP modified manifold
68-70mm tb
PLM toda replica header (tweeked with megaphone)
+60psi fuel pressure with FIC 700cc injectors e85
82mm 13.5-13.7cr custom wiseco piston
stock rods with 8mm arp rod bolts


Most people will won't want to settle for #1....they think they can do better or their ego deserves more power. Even though #2 is very respectable power, most fail to realize that that it's a uncommon path & commitment that is not for the faint hearted. Be prepared to set aside logical "bang for buck" attitude.

So they try to do something in between #1 & #2 and waste money.
So unless your 100% sure your okay with less than 170whp or your block needs a rebuild anyways, DO NOT REBUILD your b16 block.

Also head porting is not to be taken lightly. Don't waste your money on medicore work.
Go with someone with history in making power with honda heads. If you go with someone otherwise, and they mess up, you'll end up with a junk head that doesn't even perform as well as stock head casting.


I love the b16 engine.... but I know it's shortfall & am a realist.
I could make a b20v (stock head & block) and make 180whp 140tq for less than the cost of rebuilding a B16 block with aftermarket goodies.

H22APWRD94 11/29/2012 08:46 PM

Re: Build advice b16
 
OK, first problem, not enough compression or displacement to take advantage of those cams. Normally a stage 3+ cam is going to require at least 1.8L+ of displacement and normally 11.5:1 and higher compression.

Next problem, need good in/out flow to take advantage of them as well. I am not talking Blox IM and DC sports header.

As far as getting any head work done, I would not trust anyone local to do the work that is needed to make a Honda head flow well. Look at reputable companies 4Piston, Headgames and RLZ. Would not go anywhere else.

jdmfan003 11/29/2012 09:34 PM

Re: Build advice b16
 
Okay thanks for the info, do you think a ls vtech setup would be a bettr scenerio for these cams? Ls blocks are dirt cheap and a conversion Kit isn't bad either, use b16 pistons in the Ls block

Charlie Moua 11/29/2012 09:50 PM

Re: Build advice b16
 
there are local guys in MN that do nice head work and proven valve job design for decent pricing but even though it's a good bang for buck $500ish. But honestly, for those than can afford it get a fully decked out head for $900-1000.

Honestly for anything under the 230whp 9000rpms powerband, most shelf manifolds will do fine (blox, skunk2, px)..... it's when you trying to squeeze the last pony out of a setup where you go to extreem and modify manifolds or make custom ones.


If you already have the block, crank & stock rods....
LSV with itr replica pistons, rings, bearings, machine work, oil pump, seals, gaskets will be at least $800... don't try to cut corners unless you get free parts cause thats the bare min.

If you already have a complete bvtec head....
redone head (no porting) just race spec valve job, refaced valves, decked, pressure tested, media blasted, hot tanked, assembled, seals, aftermarket valvesprings & NICE cams, cam gears is $900 MIN....if you didn't spend $900, then you probably bought used cams, older design cam profile or mild cams.

just my experiance.....
so for $2,200(ish) you can have a LSV LONGBLOCK which makes 200whp and 140tq.

crxh22honda 11/30/2012 07:05 AM

Re: Build advice b16
 
:u_r_god: love these guys! ↑

Dj Technick 11/30/2012 07:55 AM

Re: Build advice b16
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmfan003 (Post 309603)
Harveys in norwalk was gonna do the port and polish, I better invest in rods and pistons because I would be mad as hell if I did all that just to loose power, I know bc not the best but I didn't want toda cams, and I've heard skunk2 isn't all that great either, when I bought the cams it said intended for use on fully built motor the cams have fairly big lobes valve lift is half a inch, what kind of pistons would you recommend stock bore on the b16 is 81 mm I believe

Don't go to harveys for a port and polish. That's a waste of time and money, plus you won't gain anything from it, send it to a reputable place just like H22 said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crxh22honda (Post 309604)
IMO I wouldnt let harveys touch any of my stuff.

I would gladly let Harveys assembler a motor for me and do a few other things. The only reason they have a bad name is people did stupid shit to blow their motors that wasn't Harveys fault.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmfan003 (Post 309605)
My goal is torque though that's what I want and to stay NA with a shot of nitrous

You're building a B16, torque is an unachievable thing, build a different motor if you want torque.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmfan003 (Post 309642)
Okay thanks for the info, do you think a ls vtech setup would be a bettr scenerio for these cams? Ls blocks are dirt cheap and a conversion Kit isn't bad either, use b16 pistons in the Ls block

He wasn't saying LSv is a better senario for them, he was simply letting you know that with as big of cam as you have you're going to need some hardcore high compression and more displacement.

The LSV that 90% of people assemble around here are worthless. If you're going to build a motor don't cut corners, do it right the first time, and seriously take your time researching everything you can and buy quality parts.

crxh22honda 11/30/2012 08:29 AM

Re: Build advice b16
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dj Technick (Post 309659)
I would gladly let Harveys assembler a motor for me and do a few other things. The only reason they have a bad name is people did stupid shit to blow their motors that wasn't Harveys fault.

They also dont have tq plates for boring Honda's. So why if they dont see many honda motors take it to them?just for assembly? No thanks ll bring it to someone who sees honda motors frequently. And i havnt really heard about the horror storys. Just with your h23 being there when phuc had it. An when jerry's had his ls head there and the only reason i knew his head was there was because i stopped by the shop.

crxh22honda 11/30/2012 08:32 AM

Re: Build advice b16
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by H22APWRD94 (Post 309641)
As far as getting any head work done, I would not trust anyone local to do the work that is needed to make a Honda head flow well. Look at reputable companies 4Piston, Headgames and RLZ. Would not go anywhere else.

Rlz will be doing mine. Getting ahold of RLZ is a bitch! If you wanna get ahold of them get on honda-tech pm them. I called there number 20 times never picked up once and that was over 2 weeks of time.

What about portflow?

jdmfan003 11/30/2012 10:54 AM

Re: Build advice b16
 
Well I've got 900 in cams, gears, and springs, and about 2k to play with Maybe selling they stuff I have now and going with a different setup would be better

ConHuevos! 11/30/2012 11:06 AM

Re: Build advice b16
 
here's some inspiration.

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=3007300

crxh22honda 11/30/2012 11:26 AM

Re: Build advice b16
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ConHuevos! (Post 309676)

Its 200hp not 200whp. And less than 100tq so i wonder what it would be on a chassis dyno

Charlie Moua 11/30/2012 03:51 PM

Re: Build advice b16
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crxh22honda (Post 309665)
Rlz will be doing mine. Getting ahold of RLZ is a bitch! If you wanna get ahold of them get on honda-tech pm them. I called there number 20 times never picked up once and that was over 2 weeks of time.

seriously....
I never understood why people still put up with crappy service.
Get your money back and send it to a company who knows how to take care of their customers.


Quote:

Originally Posted by crxh22honda (Post 309664)
They also dont have tq plates for boring Honda's. So why if they dont see many honda motors take it to them?just for assembly? No thanks ll bring it to someone who sees honda motors frequently.

Remember what i told you last time about torque plates.
They are not "absolute".
It's not practical to expect a machine shop to have a torque plate made for every engine they are going to hone. Deck plates are about $180. It's a good investment only if you do a lot of the same motor FOR performance oriented customers.

There's not a lot of honda guys in IA let alone "performance hondas" so don't count on any machine shops having a torque plate inhouse for any import engines (honda/dsm ect).

Stock rebuilds or mild setup, all you need is a knowledable machinist and he'll make sure everythings honed out to acceptable specs.

Also just because a shop doesn't work with many hondas, you cannot rule them out.
A engine builder and machinist who knows what they are doing will know what to do even if they haven't built many of 1 type of motor.






Moving on.
OP.... don't give up on the b16 so quickly pal.
If you want tq, don't look into any NA honda..... throw a turbo on there pal.

But a crx with b16 tranny, you don't need much tq to get going anways 110-120tq is plenty fine, you just gotta keep the rpms up there a little higher but it's what the b16 loves to do anyways. lol

99eclipse 11/30/2012 05:46 PM

Re: Build advice b16
 
why even think about building a b16 for torque? what a waste, :thumbsdown:

Dj Technick 12/01/2012 09:51 AM

Re: Build advice b16
 
Its your first motor build, keep it easy and more "cookie cutter". Youre not going to have this motor forever and its definitely not the last one you will build. Start simple and do the basics. First think you need to choose is what are you building it for and do you want it to be N/A or boosted.

Rods, pistons, mild cam, valves, springs, retainers, a NICE intake and exhaust manifold, and throttle body. That should be plenty for your fist time. If you wanna be N/A dont be shy 11.5 compression or a little more is plenty. If you boost thats a different story.

Charlie Moua 12/03/2012 01:44 PM

Re: Build advice b16
 
" Its your first motor build, keep it easy and more "cookie cutter". Youre not going to have this motor forever and its definitely not the last one you will build. Start simple and do the basics."


so true. I think everyone falls into that mindset when they don't know any better.

68cam 12/04/2012 03:57 PM

Re: Build advice b16
 
Lose that block pickup a b20 block put itr replicas in the bottom end with arp headstuds and rod bolts oem rings and bearing then follow charlies instructions on the head then put a 150 wet shot on it call it a day! My bone stock b20b 8.8:1 comp with ls intake 560 injectors 255 welbro fuel pump and a dented ebay header with 2 inch outlet made 205 or 210whp and 225 ftlbs its pretty fucking fun from 0-123 lol and it only revs to 6800rpms with ls tranny that hasn't had fluid in it for like 3 years!

99eclipse 12/04/2012 05:07 PM

Re: Build advice b16
 
if your goal is 220whp, why not just do stock block/head an boost it?
if im right your block can handle around 300whp fine with studs an gasket, so why not just do that and boost it and leave it set at around 250whp an call it a day?
could easily use
ebay intercoller/piping/couplers
dsm injectors
14b turbo
walbro 255
aem wideband
glowshift boost gauge,
1g dsm bov
an whatever manifold an downpipe, tuning set up you want :thumbsup:


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