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Old 05/31/2012, 01:24 AM   #26
Charlie Moua
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread

I had one of the guys from Austin MN come up to tune his car here at MAP with Jordan.


Matt Werner aka Porkchop is a oretty good kid.
I've been helping him the past month with his turbo setup and getting him ready for dyno. He's learned a lot and this is just the begining... because once that boost bug bits your hooked!

Setup:
  • recent rebuild with ITR replica pistons
  • stock rods
  • GSR head
  • Crower stage 1 turbo cams (set at 0/0)
  • Crower valvesprings & retainers
  • Ebay turbo kit (t3 50 trim - charge piping, wg 7psi/bov ect)
  • 2.5" downpipe
  • 3" exhaust
  • Competition Stage4 clutch
  • Precision 1000cc injectors
  • Walbro 255lph fuel pump
  • Omni 3bar
  • Hallsman Prox boost contoller
  • Blox gauges - (boost & oil pressure)
  • P72 + Crome

















We did have some issues on the dyno such as the TB gasket blowing up due to loose nut and ECT sensor but nothing major.


At 10psi the setup made 270'ish whp, but the goal was to hit 300whp on pump and drive it around safely for this season. I'm sure he'll be back for more power...perphase put those 1000cc injectors to use and easily shoot for 350whp at 15-16psi if that.


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Old 05/31/2012, 01:24 AM   #27
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread

Well my best friend Zing rebuild is car over the winter and we finally got a chance to convert it to OBD1 and get it tuned.

Simple easy build, nothing fancy:

D16a6 long block
Head was slightly ported with 5-angle valve job by RDR
PM3 pistons
Exospeed stg 2 cam (set at 0')
Bisi valvesprings + stock retainers
ARP rod bolts
ACL race bearing
Edlebrock header
Kteller 2.5" full exhaust
P06 Crome






It's pretty peppy!
Not too shabby considering my brothers old LS dynoed at 127whp
and my GSR dynoed at 118tq... hahah




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Old 05/31/2012, 01:26 AM   #28
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread







First of all I wanted to give thanks to the following people:

Tou - P.R.E
Keep in mind I only have 6 people who I completely trust with my friendship, cars & money and Tou is one of them. I’ve known him & his younger brothers since Jr. High. Thanks for walking me through this engine build and sharing your knowledge.

Jordan – Jordantuned.com
Of also one of the 6 friends who I trust & care about. I’ve known for 8yrs. He’s always has my back making sure I don’t chew off more than I can handle when it comes to Hondas.

Pat – R.D.R
Same as above, one of the guys that I met 8yrs ago which we just seemed to connect well.
He’s always coached me along the way just like tou & Jordan. Pat is probably the best “teacher” I now when it comes to drawing things out & explaining how things works in simple terms. I’m still waiting for him to jump back in the game when he’s ready.

Chris & MAP
MAP provided the best rock bottom pricing & has flexible dyno hours.
Buy doing this, it helped us greatly with the our B20 rebuild goals & data collecting.
Most importantly, Chris does care about the local honda guys. He's genuinely ask good questions about Honda which he's still learning & chatted with the guys who came out to watch/support.





This is my brother, Alex’s motor car which was rebuilt after his jdm b20b I swapped in spun a bearing only after 8 months of heavy abuse from Alex. I use to have a build thread on mnhondas but I didn’t see any benefit to it due to fear of theft.

Nonetheless, I still wanted to show what can be accomplished with simple parts and knowledge. Before you ask my why I didn’t do B20V, I’ll just say because my little brother doesn’t deserve it yet. He needs to learn to appreciate how to make power before I just hand it over to him.

The plan was 2stage build:
1st stage is B20 rebuild with cams 155-160whp
2nd stage will be small turbo to hit 270-280whp = coming end of 2012




Here is the break down of general parts used:


JDM B20B 8.8:1cr (84x89)
ACL race bearings mains & rods ***MAP***
ARP rod bolts *** MAP***
ARP head studs *** MAP***

JDM B20B P75 head
Milled head - P.R.E spec to raise compression from 8.8 to 9.7cr
RDR “Pat” race spec 5 angle valve job (no porting)
Delta 272 cams
Rocketmotorsports spark plugs
Rocketmotorsports snap-fit valve springs

Stock seats & retainers
Ebay cam gears
Blox intake manifold & B18a1 58mm throttle body
Ebay Tri-Y replica header “small tube” 2.5” collector
2.20” crush bent exhaust piping





Baseline pull vs. last pull
Jordan came over 9pm Wednesday to provide base map & 20mins of street tuning. We put it through a few hours of driving & made sure he engine sealed up well 215psi across the board.


Alex’s B20b vs. jdm B16a2 (decent header, intake, exhaust & tuned)
This is why I dislike b16 for NA. Most people pay $1900-2200 for a jdm b16 swap + money for bolt ons and still doesn't have a usable powerband. IMHO I'd only build a B16a NA as a practice car lapping/drag or teaching my sons how to drive cause those suckers never seem to die or hardly spin bearings.


Alex’s B20b vs. my b18c1 gsr
This is back during 2009 MAP dyno day in the summer.
GSR with skunk2 IM, gsr tb, hondata gasket, stock header, 60mm rsr full exhast. Back when we swapped in the BONE STOCK B20B (no header) 6500rpm redline, Alex's DA B20 2550lbs still killed my EF Si GSR 2300lbs in any racing conditon up to about 80-85mph in 4th. I know this new motor would certainly kill most GSR swaped civic up to 100mph.



The final results speak for themselves.
You don't need a lot of money or fancy parts to make good power.
Don't chase other people, do reasearch, ask good questions and be realistic about what you can do financially & I promise MAP will help you out with best pricing on parts.






I'm no expert or not saying this is the only way to build it.
I'm just sharing you what we've done and you can take what you want from it.


I'm very pleased with the results & we were able to stay within budget.
This should be the standard of what budget NA b-nonvtec motors build should comprise of. Too many times I see people waste money on the wrong parts.

Considering b20b dyno at 128-130whp and 120tq
We spent
$160 on cams
$75 cam gears
$165 valvesprings
$170 header
$80 used block intake manifold

$650 in aftermarket parts for gains 25whp gains and 10-12tq is money well spent.


*********************** UPDATED ***********



the results are great but not yet happy until i know the cams are degreeded in, larger TB than the dinky 58mm and portmatched....


Delta 272





Rocket Motorsports B-nonvtec cams





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Old 05/31/2012, 01:27 AM   #29
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread

On Saturday we had a group of guys that came out to get a few cars tuned.
Needless to say they were happy with the results.





EK B18c5
- internally stock
- jdm itr header
- open header
- crome + jordan tuned vs. some JunII ebay chip.





DA B18c1
- skunk2 tuner series stage2 cams (set at 0/0)
- ebay header
- full exhaust
- engine was smoking pretty bad, but it out out decent numbers lol
- car was tuned just in Nov 2011... but jordan was able to get a few more ponies out of her and clean up he midrange



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Old 05/31/2012, 01:28 AM   #30
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread

Just wanted to share this...
Jordan tuned my buddies Mong's EM1.

His EM1 is fairly basic 60-70K & well taken care of
- ebay Inake, header 2.25 collector & exhaust
- 00 itr cams with
- p28 with ebay "skunkII" map
- Crome

Before and After(35min quick tune)... lol



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Old 05/31/2012, 01:28 AM   #31
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread

This is my engine builder, TOU's budget LSV build
It was made with simple parts to keep the cost down & as a graduation gift for his younger brother Jesse.


It's a pretty simple build with surprising results !

The setup pretty much consists of:
LS block & crank
LS rods + arp rod bolts
US ITR Pistons
Performer X IM
Blox 70mm throttle body
Red District Racing Ported Head
Rocket Motorsports Springs
Skunk2 Pro2 cams
Toda Header






Here are a couple pics of the build:

Shortblock Assembled


Rocket Motorsports "Snap-Fit" springs


Pat Lehmann's stamp of approval! (Red District)


US ITR Pistons, not PR3s or P30s lol



This first dyno session @ MAP Jordan tuned, the setup made 230/153.
Tou realized that this was "above average" power for this engine size, compression, and especially on pump gas.

As good as the results were, I knew that there was still room for more power!

Being that its an N/A setup, I just couldn't turn up the boost so I had to go back to the drawing board to figure out what areas of the build could use improvements without ripping up the internals again.



I decided that a "reworked" intake manifold could in fact give it some more gains at least on the top end.

Charlie who was at both dyno sessions and saw what this engine/setup was putting down, referred me to Chris at MAP. We talked about the changes that I wanted to be made to the Performer X in order to get a little more power out of it. Chris assured me that MAP was going to be able to provide that service so I went ahead with it. They had the manifold modded/ cut-out/ and fully ported in a couple of days.

Here are a couple before/after pics:













We were back at MAP last Thursday for a dyno session and I will let the results speak for themselves:

Run009 = stock Px
Run024 = MAP modded Px


Gains were 10 whp peak, more like 15+ whp after 9k rpms though

I have some more things in mind already and plan to make some more changes and do more testing. There's another 15 whp easy in it, and thats before changing over to E-85

**** Yes, this includes CHANGING out the Pro2 cams for some ROCKET MOTORSPORTS cams

This just goes to show that if you know what you are doing, you don't need the craziest amount of compression or budget to make good power.


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Old 05/31/2012, 01:29 AM   #32
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread

"I wanted to thank Jordan, his work is proven & if I don't tune it myself I will probably never go anywhere else again.

This graph proves it!

This is a graph of my personal setup that I ran before (Not the engine in this thread).


Run file 001 was a tune from another local shop and by the 9th run, Jordan already had VTEC lowered and the numbers beat all around, nuff said! "......... Tou of P.R.E



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Old 05/31/2012, 01:29 AM   #33
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread



Special Thanks to:
Chris Carey & MAP staff
Tou - P.R.E for consulting on the H22 manifold design
Jordan
Croy & Jesse for helping me with the IM install
Derek for letting us use the 3” VS
** more pictures will be up later tonight **



For the 4th session of Dyno After Dark, we wanted to bring in an H series setup so we can test MAP's prototype modified H22 Intake manifold.
Austin’s car was a great candidate because after the recent body restoration, he swapped in a fresh JDM H22 motor.



  • JDM H22
  • H22 intake manifold & throttle body
  • Bisimoto header
  • 3” full exhaust
  • 3” BLOX VS
  • Hand Command chipped P28 + crome
  • Powersteering still attached
  • Balance Shafts still attached
  • 92 pump gas
  • non B series tranny



Chris of MAP was also very gracious in accommodate the afterhours tuning session as always & gave behind the scenes tour of MAP.
Tuning started at 7:40pm
Base line tune with P28 + handcommand base map






Jordan wasted no time cleaning up the base map & adjusting vtec in order to provide more usable powerband.
I recall telling Austin not to hope for too much since h22 cams aren’t all that great. And that anything above 180whp would be good.
I hope everyone enjoyed watching the consistent gains of each pull.



After about 12 WOT pulls & 6-8 partial load pulls. We ended up at 190whp!
We weren’t done yet though. We had a manifold that I wanted to test out.


PROPS to the fab department at MAP & Chris for being able to modify this H22 manifold in only 2 days notice. Easily 6 hours of work into the manifold, it's not prefect but this is just a prototype. I know they are ramping up for spring & their fabrication order qeues for manifold/downpipe and porting is already stacking up. Chris really stepped it up, making sure I had a manifold to test out in short notice.







Unfortnately, it took longer than expected on swapping manifold. We started at 8:15 and finished the swap at 9:30pm.
I wanted to thank Jordan for his patience in waiting, luckly I had one of the P.R.E. guys do a food-run haha.

We swapped on the current H22 throttle body & injectors to the new manifold, reusing stock TB & IM gaskets.
The 1st pull with the modified IM was +6whp, after a few touchup it ended up with +10whp gain.





By the time we got done with the IM swap the crowd lessend from 35 to about 15. I had a great time meeting new people.
Thanks for everyone on coming out and supporting MAP's Dyno-After-Dark session.
















Here is the video of the final dyno run:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK1g9DJcbmI

The sound of VTEC!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmShKspXjOM


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Old 05/31/2012, 01:38 AM   #34
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread


This is Miguel's budget turbo DelSol....
He's gone though A LOT of hondas but this is his first boosted one.

I'm not a fan of ebay/cheap turbos but sometimes it's not too bad of a route to take for new boosted honda owners.


  • D16z6 with ARP head studs
  • Ebay 60 trim t3t4 turbo kit
  • Prelude 290cc obd II injectors (93 octane)
  • Walbro 255lph fuel pump
  • FBM boost controller ..... kinda of acting up...
  • 3" downpipe
  • P28 + crome
  • JordanTuned = FTW !

Ideally he wanted to shoot for 240whp stock block
but his injectors were nearly maxing out, so we stopped at 10psi.
Miguel's already saving up for a nicer turbo & larger injectors.





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Old 05/31/2012, 06:48 AM   #35
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Moua View Post

It's a pretty simple build with surprising results !

The setup pretty much consists of:
LS block & crank
LS rods + arp rod bolts
US ITR Pistons
Performer X IM
Blox 70mm throttle body
Red District Racing Ported Head
Rocket Motorsports Springs
Skunk2 Pro2 cams
Toda Header


[b]
This first dyno session @ MAP Jordan tuned, the setup made 230/153.
Tou realized that this was "above average" power for this engine size, compression, and especially on pump gas.

This just goes to show that if you know what you are doing, you don't need the craziest amount of compression or budget to make good power.[/color]
Great freaking number an the power curve an the tq didn't fall off.

How was these a budget build?
Toda header? +$1000
Skunk2 cams? 700
Red district head? +900 plus the cost of the head it self
Intake manifold? 300
Itr pistons? 300-400
Then all the b.s. to put It together. $600
injectors to.

11 to 1 compression is pretty high.
With everything you guys had its not a surprise in my book.


No doubt tho that was some pretty good work on that intake manifold
an good number all together it. Very good work

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Old 05/31/2012, 08:34 AM   #36
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by crxh22honda View Post
Great freaking number an the power curve an the tq didn't fall off.

How was these a budget build?
Toda header? +$1000
Skunk2 cams? 700
Red district head? +900 plus the cost of the head it self
Intake manifold? 300
Itr pistons? 300-400
Then all the b.s. to put It together. $600
injectors to.

11 to 1 compression is pretty high.
With everything you guys had its not a surprise in my book.


No doubt tho that was some pretty good work on that intake manifold
an good number all together it. Very good work

Please don't take this the wrong way.
I know you've told me countless of times that cars isn't your life & just for fun so i shouldn't be so hard on you. So honestly i take what you say very lightly. I'm not offended at all pal. Cheers

I'm not bashing on you, but just counter-aruging your statement.



First notation, one of the things I am tired of hearing people say all too often is that their engine is "fully built"... 8 out of 10 times it's not.

Secondly, for those that have build NICE "built" honda race engines... this budget build wouldn't stand a chance. I don't like to hype things up & i'm modest about expected gains & comparision of other setups. I just tell it how it is & the parts used....everything in between is of engine builder & tuner.


Therefore,
if I showed this off any national form (like honda-tech.com) and said it was a "built" motor or heavly modifed "race" engine.... I would get laughed at by all the OG and NA gurus there.


Skunk2 pro2 = Free, some guy installed them on his "full-built" gsr... only made 187whp. He didn't want to pay for Tou to degree the cams. He said NA is weak and went turbo....We traded his cams for cost of 3 hours street tuning. lol

red district head = $100 for Pat (donation). Both Pat & Tou graduated from same mechanical engineering program & I've known Pat for 10yrs lol. Pat did a valve job on it with some port work with hand tools. It's not some fancy stage 3 head you would expect from RLZ, Portflow or any of the other shops in the head-games.

ebay ITR replica piston = $125 off cragislist (new in box) lol

The Toda header we took off Tou's 255whp race engine. So that was free.

Px IM.... $220
Machining/welding services = free




When you say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by crxh22honda View Post
11 to 1 compression is pretty high.
With everything you guys had its not a surprise in my book.
"roll-eyes - hum..., so eeeezay and simple...." (recall my post about nah2b 325hp thread)

Most setups similar to this only make about 220-230whp.
if this was so easy everyone and their sisters would be making these numbers.
We have a guy in MN who's basically copying the same build and he keeps thinking he's going to make 250whp with a better ported head & a victorX IM... but we don't argue and just encouraged him to "try it out" for himself.


you think 11.1cr is high?
compared to what... stock engines or race engines?

I think i've mentioned this to you before with your h22 build.
If your not going with +12.5cr for your street car... your not serious about it...
We daily drive 13.7cr e85 setup year around for like 3 years zero issues even startup in mn winters. lol a lot of it has to do with your tuner also.

When you compare this budet LSV making 240whp to Tou's older "semi-built" 2.0 gsr on e85 (custom cam, custom valve, full ported head, custom piston & rods)... which only made 255whp.

Finish building your H22, report back to see how much power it makes and how money you spent on just aftermarket parts (not replacement parts, tuning, machining).... and you'll get an idea how spendy making NA power can be. You'll better undstand that 15whp difference cost about $3K more or so.

Last edited by Charlie Moua; 05/31/2012 at 08:40 AM.

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Old 05/31/2012, 09:17 AM   #37
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread

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Originally Posted by H22APWRD94 View Post
Forget the block guard and the Bisimoto header. Much better headers out there than that, and that block guard will just cause you issues. Stock sleeves, 81.5mm bore, 500+whp, and revving to 9200ish RPM. Believe me, assembled properly, a stock sleeve block in an all motor setup will perform just fine without the block guard.
What would you recommend for a header then? And what kinda compression am I looking at for 500 whp??


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Old 05/31/2012, 05:10 PM   #38
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread

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What would you recommend for a header then? And what kinda compression am I looking at for 500 whp??
I would look at an SSR/DTR, HyTech, RMF (either old header or copy), or SMSP (bigger money). And the 500whp is only relevant for cylinder pressure, not able to be achieved on an all motor setup. The 9200rpm is relevant for cylinder wall loading. Block guards create hot spots. Hot spots can cause pre-ignition. Pre-ignition on pump gas is a very bad thing.

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Old 05/31/2012, 05:38 PM   #39
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread

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Originally Posted by Alavelle12 View Post
What would you recommend for a header then? And what kinda compression am I looking at for 500 whp??
500 HP? You're looking at boost my friend.

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Old 05/31/2012, 05:48 PM   #40
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by H22APWRD94 View Post
I would look at an SSR/DTR, HyTech, RMF (either old header or copy), or SMSP (bigger money). And the 500whp is only relevant for cylinder pressure, not able to be achieved on an all motor setup. The 9200rpm is relevant for cylinder wall loading. Block guards create hot spots. Hot spots can cause pre-ignition. Pre-ignition on pump gas is a very bad thing.
Ah ok, sorry I misinterpreted what you were saying. It's got a hytech Rep on it right now, but it's dented to hell on the bottom.


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Old 05/31/2012, 05:51 PM   #41
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread

MY SETUP
PERRIN HEADER
MSBR HEADER BACK EXHAUST
AEM CAI
JDM SPECIAL LARGER TOP MOUNT ??"CAME ON THE CAR NO BADGING ON IT"
SPT HEAT SHIELDS
MISHIMOTO RADIATOR HOSES
GO FAST BITS BOV
COBB SHORT SHIFTER
MASTER CLUTCH STAGE 3
COBB SWAY BARS FRONT AND REAR
CUSCO STRUT BARS FRONT AND REAR
PERRIN SUBFRAME STABLIZERS
BC RS COILOVERS


NEXT STEP

DOM 2.5 TURBO UPGRADE
FIVE-0 1000CC INJECTORS
WELBRO 255
AND AN E85 TUNE

IM MAKING 343AWHP AND 365TRQ.
STREET TUNED BY BOOSTED PERFORMANCE "GRAHAM GAYLORD"
ESTIMATING SOMEWHERE AROUND 450AWHP WITH BIGGER TURBO AND E85





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Old 05/31/2012, 08:21 PM   #42
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread

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Originally Posted by Alavelle12 View Post
Ah ok, sorry I misinterpreted what you were saying. It's got a hytech Rep on it right now, but it's dented to hell on the bottom.
Dents can get pulled. Weld on a SS bolt if the header is SS and get a slide hammer. Work slowly because headers tend to be pretty thin wall and can tear.

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Old 05/31/2012, 08:43 PM   #43
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread

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Dents can get pulled. Weld on a SS bolt if the header is SS and get a slide hammer. Work slowly because headers tend to be pretty thin wall and can tear.
It's beyond needing pulled, It's been scraped nearly completely through, I wire welded up a couple major leaks in it, and the spot welds burned straight through half the time. And yes I set up the welder correctly. The only way to keep it would be to weld up the 2-1 section b/c it's neatly scraped apart. And then cut out the dented/ cracked section And weld in a new one.


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you will never become the pokemon master with that attitude
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Old 05/31/2012, 09:28 PM   #44
Alavelle12
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread

http://www.privatelabelmfg.com/produ...b20-header.htm what about this header?


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you will never become the pokemon master with that attitude
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Old 06/01/2012, 01:39 PM   #45
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread

Here is my setup.

04 G35 coupe 6mt

Vortech V3 supercharger
3.12 pulley
Deatschwerks 600cc injectors
Walbro 255 fuel pump
MotorDyne 5/16 plenum spacer
NGK one step colder plugs
UpRev by Osiris tuning software

The final tune was done by Shane at DB Performance. 391RWHP and 336ftlbs on a Dyno Dynamics dyno.







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Old 06/01/2012, 09:29 PM   #46
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread

JBruckhoff.... solid numbers boss !


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Old 06/04/2012, 10:59 AM   #47
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread

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JBruckhoff.... solid numbers boss !
Thank you, Now if only I could save up some more money to get it over 400 and free up the exhaust.


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Old 06/24/2012, 11:42 AM   #48
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread

1993 Accord
tuned at central
H22a1 with aprox. 90k h23 tranny
all stock

172hp 147tq


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Old 10/02/2012, 07:11 PM   #49
Charlie Moua
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread





was tuned a few weeks ago but finally got a chance to post up dyno chart.

- stock b18c1
- quick4 manifold
- STC GT3540S
- walbro 400
- FIC 1150cc
- crome
- hallmans MBC
- Jordan Tuned


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Old 10/02/2012, 07:39 PM   #50
Charlie Moua
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Default Re: The Official Dyno / Time / Charts Thread

Matt Werner came back with new turbo, bigger injectors & e85











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