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Old 05/25/2012, 11:10 AM   #1
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Default Brake Pads - School me.

I'm at 3-4mm.

Requirement to change?

Typical cost?

Best place to go?

DIY?


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Old 05/25/2012, 11:30 AM   #2
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Default Re: Brake Pads - School me.

I've read about StopTech brake.

Would it be worth it to purchase pads from JB and have a shop install

OR

to have Honda pads + install


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Old 05/25/2012, 01:29 PM   #3
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Default Re: Brake Pads - School me.

I just did front brakes on the wifes Mazda5 last month. Made it 72xxx miles on it. They were down to the point where another 1000 miles would have caused major issues. I had been keeping an eye on them, so it would not have gotten to that point, but I just had not had any time to do them. I didn't know what I was going to get into with her car based on the fact that I had not done any maintenance on the suspension or brakes since we had bought it. I laid out 3 hours for the job just in case any issues arose. Ended up finishing in just under an hour. Everything went smooth as could be. I just replaced the pads, as the rotors were within service limit and did not have any abnormal wear.

Just this past week, a neighbor of mine needed front brakes done. I went over Sunday evening to take their 2007 Chevy Tahoe for a drive. Didn't even complete my first stop when I knew it was going to be at least pads and rotors. You could feel the feedback through the pedal of metal against metal when you came to a stop. The right front rotor was chewed up on the back side from the backing of the pad now doing the clamping. The outer half still had quite a bit of life left in it though. Very odd occurence. The left front was near the end of life on the inside, but the outside showed significantly less wear. A full set of pads and one rotor was what I told them it would need. Went over Wednesday night to do the work. Took me about an hour and fifteen minutes to complete the job. It went smoothly as well. Which really took me by surprise. The vehicle was at 75xxx miles, and I expected some issues when it came to removing the calipers or slider bolts.

What did I learn from this? Plan for the worst, have the right tools, do it the easiest way possible, and stop buying old Hondas that every bolt breaks when you think about it.

Seriously though, the hardest part of both jobs was compressing the caliper to make the room for the new pads. On the Mazda, I did it by hand. Removed the reservoir lid and used brute force. The Tahoe was a dual piston, so I used my 5" vice that I keep portable for transmission work. Clamped both pistons at the same time, turned slowly, and kept an eye on the seals as I was compressing. Worked out great. On a lot of Hondas, you are able to remove a slider bolt and leave the actual bracket on while removing the caliper. Makes it so you don't have to finagle the brake pads back in, you just put them back in place of the old ones, and compress the caliper far enough to clear the new pads then re-install the caliper.

As far as brake pads, it is best to look at what you are doing with the car. Are you auto-x'ing it or making significantly more power than stock, or are you just daily driving an otherwise stock vehicle? Base your decision for pads off of that answer.

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Old 05/25/2012, 03:50 PM   #4
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Default Re: Brake Pads - School me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by H22APWRD94 View Post
I just did front brakes on the wifes Mazda5 last month. Made it 72xxx miles on it. They were down to the point where another 1000 miles would have caused major issues. I had been keeping an eye on them, so it would not have gotten to that point, but I just had not had any time to do them. I didn't know what I was going to get into with her car based on the fact that I had not done any maintenance on the suspension or brakes since we had bought it. I laid out 3 hours for the job just in case any issues arose. Ended up finishing in just under an hour. Everything went smooth as could be. I just replaced the pads, as the rotors were within service limit and did not have any abnormal wear.

Just this past week, a neighbor of mine needed front brakes done. I went over Sunday evening to take their 2007 Chevy Tahoe for a drive. Didn't even complete my first stop when I knew it was going to be at least pads and rotors. You could feel the feedback through the pedal of metal against metal when you came to a stop. The right front rotor was chewed up on the back side from the backing of the pad now doing the clamping. The outer half still had quite a bit of life left in it though. Very odd occurence. The left front was near the end of life on the inside, but the outside showed significantly less wear. A full set of pads and one rotor was what I told them it would need. Went over Wednesday night to do the work. Took me about an hour and fifteen minutes to complete the job. It went smoothly as well. Which really took me by surprise. The vehicle was at 75xxx miles, and I expected some issues when it came to removing the calipers or slider bolts.
Cool story?

Quote:
Originally Posted by H22APWRD94 View Post
What did I learn from this? Plan for the worst, have the right tools, do it the easiest way possible, and stop buying old Hondas that every bolt breaks when you think about it.
I have a 2009 Civic, definitely not an old honda that always breaks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by H22APWRD94 View Post
Seriously though, the hardest part of both jobs was compressing the caliper to make the room for the new pads. On the Mazda, I did it by hand. Removed the reservoir lid and used brute force. The Tahoe was a dual piston, so I used my 5" vice that I keep portable for transmission work. Clamped both pistons at the same time, turned slowly, and kept an eye on the seals as I was compressing. Worked out great. On a lot of Hondas, you are able to remove a slider bolt and leave the actual bracket on while removing the caliper. Makes it so you don't have to finagle the brake pads back in, you just put them back in place of the old ones, and compress the caliper far enough to clear the new pads then re-install the caliper.
I won't be doing it myself. I have no tools or experience.


Quote:
Originally Posted by H22APWRD94 View Post
As far as brake pads, it is best to look at what you are doing with the car. Are you auto-x'ing it or making significantly more power than stock, or are you just daily driving an otherwise stock vehicle? Base your decision for pads off of that answer.
Yea.... didn't even come close to answering my questions.


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Old 05/25/2012, 05:24 PM   #5
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Default Re: Brake Pads - School me.

Requirement to change? If you are like 3-4mm from the metal that holds the pad on.....change ASAP. The longer you leave it the more likely you'll be doin some metal to metal and messing up the piston on the caliper.

Typical cost? Depends really on what you want.....brake jobs can be super cheap but you compromise longevity and looks (due to dust created from cheap pads). Most people just slap pads on rotors and never get them turned...that is a big no no in this industry and may cause premature wear or warp the rotors. Rotors can be between $25-$35 per side and pads from $19-$55. All depends if it is front or back you are doing.

Best place to go? I could do it and give ya super deal that will be like a DIY all in one....this way you see what you need done on next interval.

DIY? Always a great thing since you can learn....but I would suggest shop so you aren't over looking a few things. I normally will teach customers how to go about with a brake job in case they want to do it themselves next time.


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Old 05/25/2012, 06:19 PM   #6
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Default Re: Brake Pads - School me.

I've read about StopTech brake.

Would it be worth it to purchase pads from JB and have a shop install? If you do it helps out businesses and on top of it if you do go with that setup and it is over $100 I could install them at my labor rate and then discount 10% off on top of it because you bought through them. The setup itself is pretty good except if they are slotted or crossed drilled, you won't be able to get them machined on next interval. You'll have to buy another set of rotors....which isn't bad if you're using the car for AutoX etc.....but not cost effective if it is for daily driving.


to have Honda pads + install? If you do it through Honda it'll be done correctly as well except the price for install will leave your anus a bit sore....lol

There, did I do my job of do I need to answer more questions for ya...lol....if so I'm ready for ya boss!


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Old 05/25/2012, 07:53 PM   #7
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Default Re: Brake Pads - School me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2009 FA1 View Post
Cool story?
Sorry, I was just trying to share my recent experience with newer vehicles that are around the same age as your vehicle that have been driven year round here in Iowa. Thought this would apply to your question of

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2009 FA1 View Post
DIY?
stated in your first post. Excuse me for trying to post something helpful based on your line of questioning. I will take my knowledge elsewhere, as it seems your ignorance far outweighs it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2009 FA1 View Post
I have a 2009 Civic, definitely not an old honda that always breaks.
Re-read what I said. I said it seems that bolts are always breaking. A generalization based on the many issues people run into when trying to do suspension and brake work on older Hondas. And I understand that you have a newer Honda. Hence your username...2009 FA1. Shit, should have read that first...what was I thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2009 FA1 View Post
I won't be doing it myself. I have no tools or experience.
Again, I hearken back to your original post of

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2009 FA1 View Post
DIY?
that was why I offered my experience in my reply. So you would know what you may be getting into, and how to approach it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2009 FA1 View Post
Yea.... didn't even come close to answering my questions.
I answered a couple of your questions. I didn't answer the vague one regarding StopTech as a company. Are you looking at their BBK to fit inside some hella-flush 20's you have mounted on the car, or are you just looking for a performance pad that would be beneficial to a few weekends of auto-x throughout the year? Maybe you are just looking for a brake pad to stop your car while you are "driving slow". I answered your question regarding OEM or aftermarket brake pads. I said to base it on what you plan to do with the car. That is the best answer out there. A pad that does not fit the way you will be driving the car will leave you not liking it in the long run. Either accelerated wear on the pad or rotor, excessive squealing from too hard of a pad, heavy dust from too soft of a pad, or just overall bad braking from a poor choice. Again, your ignorance far exceeds my knowledge, so I am going to step aside and waste my time attempting to help somebody else that is more open to suggestion and is more open to answers from somebody that has experience with what they are asking.

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Old 05/25/2012, 09:55 PM   #8
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Default Re: Brake Pads - School me.

did all brakes on my wife's 06 accord. Mike is right shit breaks. First thing on the honda's for a brake job are the screws that hold the rotor on the hub. They are not necessary, but they do help with vibration and assembly. so if you don't have an impact screw driver (google it) then you will have to drill them out as I did. They are super easy to drill out as they are soft metal.

Next, if your concerned about the thickness of the pads then have a shop check them out. Most shops will inspect disc brakes for free. This most likely will only involve removing the tires and visually inspecting and then experience takes over. If you want them measured they might do that free as well as long as they don't have to disassemble anything to do so.

Keep in mind there are minimum specs or thickness for rotors as well.

If you know the specs as indicated in your first post....then just fucking google the specs. Shouldn't be hard to find that info.

Next....NEVER, EVER do a brake job without at least machining the rotors. Now that leads us to the debate about even machining the rotors. I've seen where some manufacturers don't recommend it and specifically say to replace them. The reason being a lot of newer cars (don't know the year it started) are using "composite" rotors. The "hat" or hub is made of a different metal then the actual braking surface and this type of rotor tends not to machine worth a shit. I personally buy aftermarket rotors for the first brake job after the factory ones are toast because they are made of all one material and they will machine good. They use the composite rotor to cut weight and increase gas mileage. Again, pull out the almighty GOOGLE and get informed. Google knows everything.

I also don't recommend cleaning the new rotors with brake clean or machined rotors for that matter. You are supposed to clean the rotors with warm water and dish soap.

Also, beware of rear honda calipers. They are twist in caliper pistons. If you push them in like on the front caliper you run a very good risk of ruining the caliper.

Finally, for your comment that Mike did not answer your question. POWER IS KNOWLEDGE. THE MORE YOU KNOW ABOUT BASIC SHIT ON YOUR CAR THE LESS LIKELY YOU ARE OF BEING RIPPED OFF.

So if you want the short answer based on your post about 3-4mm left on the pad without being able to actually see the pad....my advice is to go ahead and leave them alone and see what happens when the stupid fuck in front of you looses control because they are tweeting about some stupid fucking Twilight movie or some Harry Potter adventure.

Oh, I forgot....price. I used to charge $89.95 and it included labor and a decent mid level semi-metallic pad. If you brought the parts it was $60 for labor. And Rodnie's prices of pads are what you will pay at the parts store. A shop is going to mark them up. That's how it goes. Afterall Hyvee doesn't charge what they pay for the gallon of milk. But for some reason in the auto repair business people fucking cry about it all the time. "Oh, I can get those for $10 at O'Reilly's." My response, then have fucking O'Reilly's install them for you or do it yourself and quit wasting my fucking time!!! Front brakes on a 01 honda with new quality Bosch rotors and using a decent ceramic mid level pad will run about $260-$300 installed.

All four rotors (Advance Auto mid level) and front and rear pads, Wagner Thermoquiet ran me $220 for my 06 Accord. Keep in mind this NOT what a shop will charge you. Some places would charge $440 in this case. It's not unusual to double the cost of parts. Then there's labor, tax and shop fees. Call around and see what you get for quotes. I bet you can't get two locations from the same chain (Firestone, CarX, Goodyear, etc...) to give you the same estimate. They will want you to bring it in. Because they know once the car is there they will most likely get the job. There's a saying in the auto repair business, "Control the car and you control the job and the customer." That's why I recommend a small local independent shop over any of the chains.

Be aware of chains, they buy their shit in bulk for multiple stores. So they "warranty" them for the life of the car even for wear. It's simple math...most people don't own cars as long as they used to, they still charge you labor which will cover the cost of the $12 they paid for the pads they are replacing for "free" and still make money. If you want quality parts you have to specify them and then be prepared to pay for it.

So as you can see by my rant.....it's not just a simple brake job. And we didn't even cover the different options for pads. OEM, semi-metallic, ceramic, EBC Redstuff, EBC Yellowstuff, EBC Green stuff, thermoquiet, Bosch, house brand. Hawk, Stop Tech, AXMD, ooohhhh then there's my favorite - EBAY.

Last edited by deadmoans; 05/25/2012 at 10:31 PM.

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Old 05/27/2012, 08:33 PM   #9
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Default Re: Brake Pads - School me.

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Rodnie's prices of pads are what you will pay at the parts store. A shop is going to mark them up. That's how it goes.
LOL actually I quoted him on both prices, what I sell them for and the walk in price......this way they can do it themselves or I can.....I still make my money off them without marking them up. It works very well when you have accounts that have been open for many many years and are constantly revolving and are willing to help you stay in business. I will agree that shops do mark these up to make their good chunk of cash on both the install and labor....as for myself again, I mark it at what the customer can get it at the store since I am already making money off the part, you have to learn to work with the people that provide you the parts instead of marking stuff up on the customer end. Been doing this for many many years and has always worked just fine......I just don't base my business solely on making that money, it is a hobby for me that teaches me everyday.


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Old 05/28/2012, 09:37 AM   #10
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Default Re: Brake Pads - School me.

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LOL actually I quoted him on both prices, what I sell them for and the walk in price......this way they can do it themselves or I can.....I still make my money off them without marking them up. It works very well when you have accounts that have been open for many many years and are constantly revolving and are willing to help you stay in business. I will agree that shops do mark these up to make their good chunk of cash on both the install and labor....as for myself again, I mark it at what the customer can get it at the store since I am already making money off the part, you have to learn to work with the people that provide you the parts instead of marking stuff up on the customer end. Been doing this for many many years and has always worked just fine......I just don't base my business solely on making that money, it is a hobby for me that teaches me everyday.
Agreed. But you don't have the same overhead as a "normal" shop.

What's your workmen's comp insurance cost? It's required by law.
What's your business insurance cost?
What was your Iowa Workforce cost? That's unemployment insurance thro the state.
What was your federal withholding cost?
What's your property insurance cost? At Wrenches property taxes were $17,000 a year.
When was the last time the fire marshall inspected? That's $45 a year, cheap I know, unless they force you to put in an air ventilation system with co2 sensor.
What was your snow removal cost?
What was your tax accountant cost? You know the whole income thing and depreciating the cost of equipment and tools.
What was your legal cost, you know for setting up an LLC or Corp?
What was your tool and equipment cost?
What was your cost for information? You know things like Mitchell 1 and invoicing software.

The average mark up for parts is 52%. That is the industry standard for shops to stay in business as according to all major industry associations. The national average for parts mark up is closer to 82%.

We are comparing apples to oranges. You can afford to buy the pads at your cost and resale them at the retail price. And that's great. There is a need for your services. I'm just saying that it's really not fair to the "normal" shops. And people need to beware and educated about auto repairs. I just get a little irritated when people compare auto repairs at a "normal" shop to places like yours. Again, it's comparing apples to oranges.

On the other hand, you have to go out of your way to please the customer because if anything shitty happens they can always report you to the city.

Just keep in my mind Rodnie that one day a car could fall on you or worse yet on a "customer" that is helping you. I know the arguement, "oh I wont' sue." Maybe so, but any insurance company involved will certainly sue. Or, let's say you forget to tighten some lug nuts (it happens) and the customer gets in an accident.

I would say Rodine that if you quit your full time job and did auto repair full time your tune about parts prices would change drastically. You said it all....this is a hobby to you. Big difference between hobby and supporting multiple families.


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Old 05/28/2012, 10:20 AM   #11
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Default Re: Brake Pads - School me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deadmoans View Post
Agreed. But you don't have the same overhead as a "normal" shop.

What's your workmen's comp insurance cost? It's required by law.
What's your business insurance cost?
What was your Iowa Workforce cost? That's unemployment insurance thro the state.
What was your federal withholding cost?
What's your property insurance cost? At Wrenches property taxes were $17,000 a year.
When was the last time the fire marshall inspected? That's $45 a year, cheap I know, unless they force you to put in an air ventilation system with co2 sensor.
What was your snow removal cost?
What was your tax accountant cost? You know the whole income thing and depreciating the cost of equipment and tools.
What was your legal cost, you know for setting up an LLC or Corp?
What was your tool and equipment cost?
What was your cost for information? You know things like Mitchell 1 and invoicing software.

The average mark up for parts is 52%. That is the industry standard for shops to stay in business as according to all major industry associations. The national average for parts mark up is closer to 82%.

We are comparing apples to oranges. You can afford to buy the pads at your cost and resale them at the retail price. And that's great. There is a need for your services. I'm just saying that it's really not fair to the "normal" shops. And people need to beware and educated about auto repairs. I just get a little irritated when people compare auto repairs at a "normal" shop to places like yours. Again, it's comparing apples to oranges.

On the other hand, you have to go out of your way to please the customer because if anything shitty happens they can always report you to the city.

Just keep in my mind Rodnie that one day a car could fall on you or worse yet on a "customer" that is helping you. I know the arguement, "oh I wont' sue." Maybe so, but any insurance company involved will certainly sue. Or, let's say you forget to tighten some lug nuts (it happens) and the customer gets in an accident.

I would say Rodine that if you quit your full time job and did auto repair full time your tune about parts prices would change drastically. You said it all....this is a hobby to you. Big difference between hobby and supporting multiple families.
Of course I don't have ovehead....but people in life choose different methods of going about with business and not everyone will gamble their money and family. I chose a different path then the "typical shop" and I am the only one working on vehicles. Todd being my co owner doesn't mean I need him here to help 24/7 and all work is done by me only. My hours are also off hours due to a full time job during the day.....I chose that to minimize the costs incurred by "regular shops" and I also educate people every single day on what is and isn't a fair price (and you know some shops out there over price stuff to make even more money). Not everyone can afford every service and so I stepped in many years ago to help out our hobby. Like you also mentioned awhile back a shop cannot sustain itself on just aftermarket installs only....so we learn to adapt and help in other ways to keep the business going.
Not trying to start an argument about who is better then who.....life isn't fair to everyone. I do what works for me, I follow rules that I learned from working at Kraft (and we both know hoe many times he got in trouble) and this business will always stay a hobby to help those out there not get shafted by high prices and still get the same quality work. I am not the only person doing this....many businesses out there have done it as well and they still flourish for many years. My wife does in home daycare with her friend....should she close down just because she doesn't have a building and ALL the things required by the state when you are in a business? No, they meet all the requirements a regular daycare incurs except without the hassles you listed above in question form.

I know what it takes to get your business out there and all the things that can and will go wrong....that is why I take my time always and not rush through things just because my next car is right behind. I've never compared my business to any other shops out there because it is at my home, the idea for this thread was to answer the man's questions and not to go back and forth about who did how because when where because sag nuts.....LOL. I am sure EVERYONE on this forum has had experiences with multiple shops and their normal fees.....but everyone has their preference. There were a ton of jobs I could of done here but instead I sent them to other shops in the past because I too love supporting local business.
I'm sure once all is said and done he will likely take the car where he feels most safe with...could be Honda....could be somewhere else.

Last edited by importsusa; 05/29/2012 at 06:27 AM.

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Old 06/15/2012, 04:59 PM   #12
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Default Re: Brake Pads - School me.

I feel like I just got done reading a novel between everyones post on here


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Old 06/16/2012, 07:35 PM   #13
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Default Re: Brake Pads - School me.

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I feel like I just got done reading a novel between everyones post on here
Hey, just be glad you can read.....LOL.....there are still people out there that can even form a full sentence or read past the intro of a book....lol

but yeah, we sorta got carried away.........


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