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Old 02/03/2012, 02:07 AM   #1
Charlie Moua
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Default B20b budget build = DYNO results







First of all I wanted to give thanks to the following people:

Tou - P.R.E
Keep in mind I only have 6 people who I completely trust with my friendship, cars & money and Tou is one of them. I’ve known him & his younger brothers since Jr. High. Thanks for walking me through this engine build and sharing your knowledge.

Jordan – Jordantuned.com
Of also one of the 6 friends who I trust & care about. I’ve known for 8yrs. He’s always has my back making sure I don’t chew off more than I can handle when it comes to Hondas.

Pat – R.D.R
Same as above, one of the guys that I met 8yrs ago which we just seemed to connect well.
He’s always coached me along the way just like tou & Jordan. Pat is probably the best “teacher” I now when it comes to drawing things out & explaining how things works in simple terms. I’m still waiting for him to jump back in the game when he’s ready.

Chris & MAP
MAP provided the best rock bottom pricing & has flexible dyno hours.
Buy doing this, it helped us greatly with the our B20 rebuild goals & data collecting.
Most importantly, Chris does care about the local honda guys. He's genuinely ask good questions about Honda which he's still learning & chatted with the guys who came out to watch/support.





This is my brother, Alex’s motor car which was rebuilt after his jdm b20b I swapped in spun a bearing only after 8 months of heavy abuse from Alex. I use to have a build thread on mnhondas but I didn’t see any benefit to it due to fear of theft.

Nonetheless, I still wanted to show what can be accomplished with simple parts and knowledge. Before you ask my why I didn’t do B20V, I’ll just say because my little brother doesn’t deserve it yet. He needs to learn to appreciate how to make power before I just hand it over to him.

The plan was 2stage build:
1st stage is B20 rebuild with cams 155-160whp
2nd stage will be small turbo to hit 270-280whp = coming end of 2012




Here is the break down of general parts used:


JDM B20B 8.8:1cr (84x89)
ACL race bearings mains & rods ***MAP***
ARP rod bolts *** MAP***
ARP head studs *** MAP***

JDM B20B P75 head
Milled head - P.R.E spec to raise compression from 8.8 to 9.7cr
RDR “Pat” race spec 5 angle valve job (no porting)
Delta 272 cams
Rocketmotorsports spark plugs
Rocketmotorsports snap-fit valve springs

Stock seats & retainers
Ebay cam gears
Blox intake manifold & B18a1 58mm throttle body
Ebay Tri-Y replica header “small tube” 2.5” collector
2.20” crush bent exhaust piping





Baseline pull vs. last pull
Jordan came over 9pm Wednesday to provide base map & 20mins of street tuning. We put it through a few hours of driving & made sure he engine sealed up well 215psi across the board.


Alex’s B20b vs. jdm B16a2 (decent header, intake, exhaust & tuned)
This is why I dislike b16 for NA. Most people pay $1900-2200 for a jdm b16 swap + money for bolt ons and still doesn't have a usable powerband. IMHO I'd only build a B16a NA as a practice car lapping/drag or teaching my sons how to drive cause those suckers never seem to die or hardly spin bearings.


Alex’s B20b vs. my b18c1 gsr
This is back during 2009 MAP dyno day in the summer.
GSR with skunk2 IM, gsr tb, hondata gasket, stock header, 60mm rsr full exhast. Back when we swapped in the BONE STOCK B20B (no header) 6500rpm redline, Alex's DA B20 2550lbs still killed my EF Si GSR 2300lbs in any racing conditon up to about 80-85mph in 4th. I know this new motor would certainly kill most GSR swaped civic up to 100mph.



The final results speak for themselves.
You don't need a lot of money or fancy parts to make good power.
Don't chase other people, do reasearch, ask good questions and be realistic about what you can do financially & I promise MAP will help you out with best pricing on parts.






I'm no expert or not saying this is the only way to build it.
I'm just sharing you what we've done and you can take what you want from it.


I'm very pleased with the results & we were able to stay within budget.
This should be the standard of what budget NA b-nonvtec motors build should comprise of. Too many times I see people waste money on the wrong parts.

Considering b20b dyno at 128-130whp and 120tq
We spent
$160 on cams
$75 cam gears
$165 valvesprings
$170 header
$80 used block intake manifold

$650 in aftermarket parts for gains 25whp gains and 10-12tq is money well spent.

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Old 02/03/2012, 02:08 AM   #2
Charlie Moua
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results

here are some pictures of the build





reason for the tear down..... spun oem bearing cause rod bolt was loose





Ebay



Milled


Honed stock rods




delta 272










RMS - snap fit to oem retainers




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Old 02/24/2012, 06:04 PM   #3
Charlie Moua
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results

.....


new rocket cams jsut came in..... we should have dyno results next week.... stay tuned.

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Old 02/25/2012, 06:00 AM   #4
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results

nice progress. I made 154.90 Hp and 137.60 for Torque (E85 fuel) all stock no cams or pistons. Nice cam choice as well. I was a big fan of rocket cams when they were in my gsr.


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Old 02/26/2012, 10:51 PM   #5
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results

Quote:
Originally Posted by SupaDave View Post
nice progress. I made 154.90 Hp and 137.60 for Torque (E85 fuel) all stock no cams or pistons. Nice cam choice as well. I was a big fan of rocket cams when they were in my gsr.
dynojet?
damn that's good for a stock LS longblock.
what bolts on did you have? IM & header?

E85 is nice but for the most part on mild setups which cr is around 10 or under E85 maybe only nets 2-3% gain..... we have it in MN but i doubt my brother wants to covert to it.

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Old 02/28/2012, 12:10 AM   #6
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results

full B20b from hmotors.
Had: Tri-y highend header, password jdm intake, Aem fuel rail w/ regulator, blox intake manifold with blox throttle body. 550 cc injectors.
E-85 or not, it's all personal preference my dude. As for the dyno I can't remember exactly what brand, but wasn't a dynojet.


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Old 02/28/2012, 12:22 AM   #7
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results

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Originally Posted by SupaDave View Post
nice progress. I made 154.90 Hp and 137.60 for Torque (E85 fuel) all stock no cams or pistons. Nice cam choice as well. I was a big fan of rocket cams when they were in my gsr.
SupaDave with a punk out!


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Old 02/28/2012, 08:38 AM   #8
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results

Quote:
Originally Posted by SupaDave View Post
full B20b from hmotors.
Had: Tri-y highend header, password jdm intake, Aem fuel rail w/ regulator, blox intake manifold with blox throttle body. 550 cc injectors.
E-85 or not, it's all personal preference my dude. As for the dyno I can't remember exactly what brand, but wasn't a dynojet.
yeah i thought your number seemed high for just stock jdm b20b with bolton's.
See it wasn't a roller type dynometer, my guess it was a dynopack which has less rotational loss and therefor will read higher that rollerstyle dynojet.

Still pretty good numbers. 154whp on dynopack would be like 135-140whp on dynojet.

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Old 02/28/2012, 09:11 AM   #9
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results

actually i just looked up wrench's tuning thread. It was a dynojet 248x.

http://www.jdmcity.com/showthread.php?t=14148


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Old 02/28/2012, 11:39 AM   #10
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results

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Originally Posted by SupaDave View Post
actually i just looked up wrench's tuning thread. It was a dynojet 248x.

http://www.jdmcity.com/showthread.php?t=14148
strange, i can't seem to graphs how a 8.8cr 81x89 can make 150whp with b20b stock cams.

it is what it is, must be one off those freak motors.. lol

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Old 02/28/2012, 03:12 PM   #11
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results

mine was 99-00 spec 9.6 compression


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Old 02/28/2012, 11:30 PM   #12
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results

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Originally Posted by SupaDave View Post
mine was 99-00 spec 9.6 compression
regardless.
stock b20 cams don't have enough lift to carry tq curve far enough, you can alter IM & headers only to a point. Your motor was a beast for a stock jdm b20b/z that's for sure.

cheers....

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Old 02/29/2012, 11:26 PM   #13
Charlie Moua
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results


New Rocketmotorsports cams... just for me to try out... lol

They have 232* duration intake at 0.050” and 212* duration exhaust at .050”








Last edited by Charlie Moua; 10/03/2012 at 10:38 PM.
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Old 03/01/2012, 01:44 PM   #14
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results

Good numbers, I'm glad to see Robert (Rocket) is still doing his thing.

Last I heard, Rocket was moving on to bigger and better things.

Last edited by TwokSiR; 03/01/2012 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 03/03/2012, 08:25 AM   #15
Charlie Moua
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results

made 167whp.... +10whp over deltas, BUT

there should be about 10whp more, these cams were NOT degreed into the engine like the delta 272 so we have to dial it in, get new larger TB cause the power is flatting out BUT not dropping off so that leads me to believe the 56mm tb is too small...we need a 70mm. lol

Not happy with the results yet but once we re-dyno i'll post up dynocharts

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Old 03/03/2012, 09:22 AM   #16
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results

Sounds amazing. Seeing is believe tho can't wait tell your able to get things lined up like you would like.

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Old 03/03/2012, 09:25 AM   #17
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results

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Originally Posted by Charlie Moua View Post
made 167whp.... +10whp over deltas, BUT

there should be about 10whp more, these cams were NOT degreed into the engine like the delta 272 so we have to dial it in, get new larger TB cause the power is flatting out BUT not dropping off so that leads me to believe the 56mm tb is too small...we need a 70mm. lol

Not happy with the results yet but once we re-dyno i'll post up dynocharts
do you think just the cams made 10 h.p. over the delta's ??/ or the additional tuning helped as well ??
I always get custom grinds from delta.. becouse no matter what car or what setup you have they will recomend the street/strip 272*.... When I talked to them they said they could make any cam profile ( s2 stg 2, crower 404's , you name it they can grind it... I think if anything you just bought a more aggressive cam from rocket.. regrind cams are regrind cams.. its all in the specs...


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Old 03/03/2012, 12:27 PM   #18
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results

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Originally Posted by ososlohatch View Post
do you think just the cams made 10 h.p. over the delta's ??/ or the additional tuning helped as well ??
I always get custom grinds from delta.. becouse no matter what car or what setup you have they will recomend the street/strip 272*.... When I talked to them they said they could make any cam profile ( s2 stg 2, crower 404's , you name it they can grind it... I think if anything you just bought a more aggressive cam from rocket.. regrind cams are regrind cams.. its all in the specs...
Both new cams + more fuel up top made the 10whp gain.

The design of how the delta cams are regrind are different design than Rockets.
Tou explained it to me but i can't seem to graphs the concept in my head. lol
So it's not just bought the life/duration difference in of both cams.

Yeah delta can make any cam profile, but as for regrinds they can only do so much. I asked for a 282 and they say it would have to be billet core not regrind.


So cliff notes:
delta 272 = 156-157whp
rocketmotorsports prototype = 167whp

next step
degree cam, bigger tb & retune... hope to hit 172-175whp.

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Old 03/04/2012, 10:47 AM   #19
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results

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Originally Posted by Charlie Moua View Post
Both new cams + more fuel up top made the 10whp gain.

The design of how the delta cams are regrind are different design than Rockets.
Tou explained it to me but i can't seem to graphs the concept in my head. lol
So it's not just bought the life/duration difference in of both cams.

Yeah delta can make any cam profile, but as for regrinds they can only do so much. I asked for a 282 and they say it would have to be billet core not regrind.


So cliff notes:
delta 272 = 156-157whp
rocketmotorsports prototype = 167whp

next step
degree cam, bigger tb & retune... hope to hit 172-175whp.
I'm sorry but I just dont think the cams is what gave you 10 hp.... It could have been a colder night/ different air density, the additional fuel you added up top which the deltas pry could have used to ..etc...
Im not sayn the rockets aren't good or I don't like them, Im just sayn :)


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Old 03/05/2012, 08:42 AM   #20
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results

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Originally Posted by ososlohatch View Post
I'm sorry but I just dont think the cams is what gave you 10 hp.... It could have been a colder night/ different air density, the additional fuel you added up top which the deltas pry could have used to ..etc...
Im not sayn the rockets aren't good or I don't like them, Im just sayn :)


lol
dyno tested was closed door (mn winter)
temp inside was 72F as it always is.
exhaust gas was vented by 20" fan the the right of the exhaust tip


Yes the cams gave me +10whp.
i'll post up the graph later. I'm not happy with it yet that's why i prefer not to post it but for the sake of not turning this into a "prove it" thread i'll post it up.

Delta cams are 209 lift (but we degreed them & measured them out at 214 left @ 0.50)
The car was properly tuned with the deltas. Jordan wouldn't allow me to post it if he wasn't happy with the gains.

If anything, I'd say we didn't have enough time to properly tune the Rocket cams. They aren't even degreed. haha
So the GAINS are from the bigger cams, not from lackluster fuel on the delta tune.

The RM cams here have a good amount of duration, approximately 232 duration @ 0.050 on the intake and 210 duration on the exhaust.

That's a lot of cam. For reference ITR cams have about 233 duration @ 0.050 on the intake cam. Translation: it's gonna lope at idle.


rocket is sending me another set of LS cams to try out cause I think these MIGHT be a little too agressive for most people. The idel is pretty high and that kills mpg. But if my brothers car was drag ONLY then yes these cams would be bad ass.

Next cams will have slightly smaller intake & bigger exhaust.

Last edited by Charlie Moua; 03/05/2012 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 03/05/2012, 02:03 PM   #21
Charlie Moua
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results




like i said before, the results are great but not yet happy until i know the cams are degreeded in, larger TB than the dinky 58mm and portmatched....


Delta 272





RMS/PRE protoptype cams




Last edited by Charlie Moua; 03/05/2012 at 08:57 PM.
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Old 03/05/2012, 08:55 PM   #22
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results

but you originally you said the additional fuel tuning + cams made 10hp.. not just the cams.. but I agree with what your are say'n..


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Old 03/05/2012, 09:13 PM   #23
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results

should be great numbers with the new cams degree'd in and bigger tb..


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Old 03/05/2012, 09:18 PM   #24
Charlie Moua
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results

oh my bad...
sometime my fingers don't type what i'm trying to say....

all good.

yeah Tou and I aren't really happy with them "just yet".....

Tonight I decided to donate my 70mm tb to my brother.
70mm inlet , tappers down to 68mm
Blox IM inlet is 64mm... so to the machine shop it will go.

probably won't dyno the new IM and cams until for another 3 weeks.

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Old 03/05/2012, 09:23 PM   #25
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Default Re: B20b budget build = DYNO results

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Originally Posted by TwokSiR View Post
Good numbers, I'm glad to see Robert (Rocket) is still doing his thing.

Last I heard, Rocket was moving on to bigger and better things.
I was told he doesnt do them anymore, however the name rocketmotorsports goes on to the few distributors. I could be wrong..
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2843104


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