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Old 04/19/2012, 11:17 AM   #1
Charlie Moua
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Default JordanTuned - B18C5

On Saturday we had a group of guys that came out to get a few cars tuned.
Needless to say they were happy with the results.





EK B18c5
- internally stock
- jdm itr header
- open header
- crome + jordan tuned vs. some JunII ebay chip.





DA B18c1
- skunk2 tuner series stage2 cams (set at 0/0)
- ebay header
- full exhaust
- engine was smoking pretty bad, but it out out decent numbers lol
- car was tuned just in Nov 2011... but jordan was able to get a few more ponies out of her and clean up he midrange


Last edited by Charlie Moua; 04/19/2012 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 04/19/2012, 11:34 AM   #2
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

Wow. That's a pretty good number for a Type rawr.

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Old 04/19/2012, 01:43 PM   #3
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
Wow. That's a pretty good number for a Type rawr.
honestly i was really suprised myself.

Jordan stopped after the 1st WOT pull just to make sure it was reading right.... haha

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Old 04/19/2012, 07:03 PM   #4
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

wow for those beings $5k+ motors i would have thought they would pull more whp. damn i can make more on a single non-v with only $1500. fpsmh to me just weak no offence.


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Old 04/19/2012, 09:30 PM   #5
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.carr View Post
wow for those beings $5k+ motors i would have thought they would pull more whp. damn i can make more on a single non-v with only $1500. fpsmh to me just weak no offence.
yeah they are pretty weak for the money imo. but, nice numbers


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Old 04/20/2012, 07:15 AM   #6
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

You guys keep forgetting about reliability. Stock just tuned that motor is putting down 189whp 137tq. That's pretty damn good. An it has a nice power curve. Try doing that with a sohc 1.6. An when you get how long will it last?


Was the c1 so bad that if it was health do you think it would be really close to 200whp? Hard to say I know. But just wondering how bad it was.

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Old 04/20/2012, 07:19 AM   #7
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

How long did he have that junII chip in. I bet after the tune he was like holy shit!.....or maybe not cause he misses vtec kicking in so hard.



Did he drop out of vtec before every time he shifted? That would suck

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Old 04/20/2012, 12:38 PM   #8
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.carr View Post
wow for those beings $5k+ motors i would have thought they would pull more whp. damn i can make more on a single non-v with only $1500. fpsmh to me just weak no offence.


I think he paid like $3600 no tranny for the ITR longblock
If you think B series are overpriced for power you should look at K motors... haha
But in all seriousness, The money you spend on your motor is just the BASE platform.

You can't compare stock B motors to junkyard turbo boosted D setups which cost $1200.00

Just like you can't compared boosted B series to stock K series...

just a platform.
If you got the money for a BETTER/BIGGER platform, more power to you.
But don't be quick to frown onother setups.




Quote:
Originally Posted by crxh22honda View Post
How long did he have that junII chip in. I bet after the tune he was like holy shit!.....or maybe not cause he misses vtec kicking in so hard.

Did he drop out of vtec before every time he shifted? That would suck

yeah he drove it for a few months like that.
I don't think it's his DD though. I know he left happy....
Yes midrange is night and day difference.
Top end, i doubt anyone can feel the difference between 5-10whp...it's hard to "feel" the difference up top, but that's what the dyno is for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Em1LuiSiR View Post
yeah they are pretty weak for the money imo. but, nice numbers
whp to $ spent?
yeah right out the box it's not impresseive, but i'll bet money that B motors are more responsive to mods than D motors.... haha

If you haven't yet..
try tracking a cheap turbo kit setup on a stock D motor and see if you can keep up your pace with B series motors with boltons... 15min laps sessions 30min breaks....

To each his own. I'm a boosted guy to, and also all about bang for buck results, but don't discount reliablity OR ignor the limits of each motor.

Last edited by Charlie Moua; 04/23/2012 at 11:02 PM.
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Old 04/20/2012, 09:23 PM   #9
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

true point that i cant argue about. however we all have seen some well built d's and no one can argue about the "bang for the buck" factor on that. so dont get me wrong i love the b's i just cant justify the high entree price to play, thats all.
and as for the k and j swaps i think is a real waste of money due to the fact you REALLY CAN make more and be more reliable with a well built b all day for a fraction less than initial cost to do a k/j swap.


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Old 04/23/2012, 10:42 PM   #10
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

Jordan is a great tuner I think more people from Iowa should go up to him well priced.. My D16z6 made 406whp and 333wtq with a log manifold from p fab.. It would of ran low 11sec if I could of had more time to build the trans up LSD and switching out the gears also I had taller slicks 24.5 but didnt get that far.. I did trap 119.44 with 23x8 slicks constantly... These honda engines were not designed for turbo builds at all the designer that made the blueprints for the honda engines had only all motor in mind.. All motor is the purest and thats how it was in the 90's.. D series are the weakest when it comes to large amounts of cylinder pressure.. All these honda engines need help with cylinder pressure... How your going to hold all that pressure well thats up to you to figure out.. If not then you wont have much success if you can figure out how to get the crank assembly to hold up to that point..


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Old 04/23/2012, 11:01 PM   #11
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

Quote:
Originally Posted by one-cam View Post
Jordan is a great tuner I think more people from Iowa should go up to him well priced.. My D16z6 made 406whp and 333wtq with a log manifold from p fab.. It would of ran low 11sec if I could of had more time to build the trans up LSD and switching out the gears also I had taller slicks 24.5 but didnt get that far.. I did trap 119.44 with 23x8 slicks constantly... These honda engines were not designed for turbo builds at all the designer that made the blueprints for the honda engines had only all motor in mind.. All motor is the purest and thats how it was in the 90's.. D series are the weakest when it comes to large amounts of cylinder pressure.. All these honda engines need help with cylinder pressure... How your going to hold all that pressure well thats up to you to figure out.. If not then you wont have much success if you can figure out how to get the crank assembly to hold up to that point..
Yeah your setup was one of the few local midwest d series back in the days which had a nice powerband.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.carr View Post
true point that i cant argue about. however we all have seen some well built d's and no one can argue about the "bang for the buck" factor on that. so dont get me wrong i love the b's i just cant justify the high entree price to play, thats all.
and as for the k and j swaps i think is a real waste of money due to the fact you REALLY CAN make more and be more reliable with a well built b all day for a fraction less than initial cost to do a k/j swap.
I do agree with you a lot...especially my wallet.
But no lie, i I had the funds I'd build a K... haha

But P.R.E is coming out with a 2.3 Bvtec this summer ($3.5K) into the motor and it should crack over 300whp on e85...& and budget h22 setup looking to crack over 250whp but we'll see.... still a lot of work ahead..


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Old 04/24/2012, 02:11 AM   #12
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

Impressive power. N/A can be nice.

How are those Skunk2 Tuner Stage 2 cams? I've been debating between on some Pro vs. Tuner series cams.

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Old 04/24/2012, 05:41 AM   #13
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

I would like to hear Charlie opinion on this. I personal think erither cam you choose you should use pro springs. Just cause if you do go with tuner cams an if you ever plan on going with a bigger cam in the future you won't be able to use the tuner springs. Cause they are a lighter spring rate

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Old 04/24/2012, 09:35 AM   #14
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

Quote:
Originally Posted by crxh22honda View Post
I would like to hear Charlie opinion on this. I personal think erither cam you choose you should use pro springs. Just cause if you do go with tuner cams an if you ever plan on going with a bigger cam in the future you won't be able to use the tuner springs. Cause they are a lighter spring rate

Honestly...
Maybe i'm not smart enough to understand the techy info behind why skunk2 makes 2 series of valvesprings. I do know marketing well and that would make sense with that regards.

For valvesprings we always use Rocket Motorsports snap fit valvesprings.

why = Bang for buck

They work with stock retainers or some k series (forged)
they are 186lbs seat pressure....they can handle pro3, m25x, tuner 3 series cause we've used them on those already. So everything (cams)



in regards to NA cams there is no "best cam".
I've seen different setups were pro series get beaten by tuner series, or blox cams making better midrange over BC, ect...


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Old 04/24/2012, 07:42 PM   #15
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

JORDAN IS A BEAST!!!!


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Old 04/25/2012, 11:27 PM   #16
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

B series vtec head can handle 500whp with stock parts.. I read this some where.. You don't have to do much to them heads since they are high rpm engines in the first place.. But marketing would be a good reason.. Just to make money.. Most of the time the oem honda cams are better in quality and materiel then lets say comp cams.. I had a 59300 zex/comp start pitting on one of the lobs I noticed this after I did a rebuild.. So they sent me another for half the price and I sent my used one back.. Both were bought new I didnt get a chance to check later how the new one held up.. Its hard to get cheap aftermarket parts and quality..


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Old 04/26/2012, 07:25 AM   #17
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

Quote:
Originally Posted by one-cam View Post
B series vtec head can handle 500whp with stock parts.. I read this some where.. You don't have to do much to them heads since they are high rpm engines in the first place.. But marketing would be a good reason.. Just to make money.. Most of the time the oem honda cams are better in quality and materiel then lets say comp cams.. I had a 59300 zex/comp start pitting on one of the lobs I noticed this after I did a rebuild.. So they sent me another for half the price and I sent my used one back.. Both were bought new I didnt get a chance to check later how the new one held up.. Its hard to get cheap aftermarket parts and quality..



So what's your point? He was asking about cams. Skunk2 tuner an pro series. An 500hp no way. It probably did one time for a few Dyno passes an than that would be over.

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Old 04/26/2012, 10:58 AM   #18
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

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Originally Posted by crxh22honda View Post
So what's your point? He was asking about cams. Skunk2 tuner an pro series. An 500hp no way. It probably did one time for a few Dyno passes an than that would be over.
lol... yeah his comment did somewhat off-topic.
Just to confirm, for NA applications, as i've said already, the Proseries are a better profile cam.



On a side note. Bvtec heads can handle a lot of power when boosted.
You have to understand the weak point of the head in certain applications.
When you boost it, the cams will make power to pretty high amount +700whp,

The kicker is that with turbo applciatons,
boost creates at lot of PSI per sqaure inch = PSI force will always exisit in pushing aginist the valves when they are trying to SHUT.

This creates unwanted stress on any OEM valvesprings.
You won't notice the problem until it's too late such as coil bind or dropping valve.
Once you replace it with aftermarket valvesprings, you should spool faster since heavier spring rates slam your valve shut when they are suppose to.

Sure any 350-400whp on stock cams/valvesprings are fine.
But there are gains to be made in making the engine more efficent even it that doesn't mean making more power by upgrading valvesprings.


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Old 04/26/2012, 02:26 PM   #19
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

Coil bind has nothing to do with boost pressure.

Boost does help push the valve shut but that puts no extra stress on the spring, if anything it just helps the spring do its job.... its pushing in the same direction.

*EDIT, I take that back, it depends on which cycle we are speaking of. If you are implying that incoming boost pressure is helping to hold the valve open then what you are saying could be correct but I believe it would have to be VERY high boost pressure to create a pressure differential large enough to modify the holding pressure of the spring. It could though however and effectively reduce the spring pressure enough that the valve would float a little. I dont know if I would go so far as to say that it could cause a coil bind issue but I honestly do not know what the coil bind on a stock B spring is, or what the cam profile is like so I suppose under extreme circumstances that its possible.

Coil bind normally occurs when the vavletrain isnt setup correctly to begin with.. i.e. wrong cam/spring/retainer combo or mixing and matching parts from different suppliers. Its a mechanical factor of the spring wether its boosted or NA.

There is a reason there is a tuner spring and a Pro spring. Pro springs are heavier and they are going to wear on components faster, understandable if you are a "pro" type racer... for a mild cam they are too much, no need in putting that extra stress on the cams/rockers if you dont have to hence the "tuner" spring option for the milder "tuner" cams. You always want enough spring pressure to do the job, however too much is just going to wear things out alot faster.

Last edited by Rosko; 04/26/2012 at 03:00 PM.

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Old 04/26/2012, 10:29 PM   #20
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

Thanks for sharing your insight.


I can see where having springs are too stiff / too much spring pressure for smaller cams would cause premature wear.


This is my thought process though.. (not sure if it makes sense or is correct) lol

1) when using aftermarket cams & "matching" valvesprings, it doesn't mean that you're some how "correcting" wear on the rockers back to what it would be with stock cams/valvesprings.

2) since guys who mod there cars with bigger cams more than likely use them for racing, wear is going to occur... it's all about a matter of wear rate (which it's too hard to accurate collect data cause too many variable with setups, usage, installation ect).

3) wear is unavoidable for racing applications. It's nice to know a motor will last say 50K of daily driving / weekend racing... but the reality is that most heads will need to be rebuild & inspected say every 10K or so to check for wear.

therefore, I'm not 100% sold that people NEED or SHOULD buy matching valvesprings for their cam. I try to be cost effective but safe as possible, and I would imagine there should be a middle ground of valvespring which are stiff enough to use on a "wider" range of cams and not fall into the marketing of some companies....


Is there a flaw in my thinking ?


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Old 04/27/2012, 07:55 AM   #21
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Moua View Post
Thanks for sharing your insight.


I can see where having springs are too stiff / too much spring pressure for smaller cams would cause premature wear.


This is my thought process though.. (not sure if it makes sense or is correct) lol

1) when using aftermarket cams & "matching" valvesprings, it doesn't mean that you're some how "correcting" wear on the rockers back to what it would be with stock cams/valvesprings.

2) since guys who mod there cars with bigger cams more than likely use them for racing, wear is going to occur... it's all about a matter of wear rate (which it's too hard to accurate collect data cause too many variable with setups, usage, installation ect).

3) wear is unavoidable for racing applications. It's nice to know a motor will last say 50K of daily driving / weekend racing... but the reality is that most heads will need to be rebuild & inspected say every 10K or so to check for wear.

therefore, I'm not 100% sold that people NEED or SHOULD buy matching valvesprings for their cam. I try to be cost effective but safe as possible, and I would imagine there should be a middle ground of valvespring which are stiff enough to use on a "wider" range of cams and not fall into the marketing of some companies....


Is there a flaw in my thinking ?
I'm not so worried about the springs matching the cam, but the springs matching the retainer even though I do feel they are all important in the end. I measured a handful of retainers long ago from Crower, Supertech, Skunk2 and stock and came up with very different results from each brand. The installed height of the retainer can vary greatly depending on the steps on the underside of the retainer and the tapered portion inside that seats against the valve locks. This effects retainer to valve stem seal clearance and also could create a coil bind issue. If you are capable of measuring spring installed height, seat pressure, retainer-to-seal clearance and coil bind then I say run whatever you want but most people arent and sadly just assume things will work... I have the same feeling about degreeing cams. The safe bet is to run parts from the same manufacturer because they would obviously design their springs/cams/retainers to work with each other. The differences in retainers will effect the installed height of the spring, which can effect how much travel the spring has before coil bind. Typically with a high lift cam in a Honda you dont have much room for error... if you mix a slightly taller spring with a slightly shorter retainer you could run out of clearance and bottom out the retainer or bottom out the spring. At a minimum you would have a higher seat pressure and you would probably be compressing the spring further than it was designed. Just because a spring says it binds at XX inches does not mean that you should try to compress it that far or even close to that, the farther you compress it the shorter its life will be. You may get several setups to work like this, but the fatigue rate of the spring will be extremely high. Nobody ever drops a valve and says "yeah I was compressing that spring farther than I should have and wore it out causing my valves to float and collide with the pistons.. my fault!" haha nope its always "man these valves are JUNK, XX company owes me a new motor what a shitty part!" LOL ok end of rant :)


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Old 04/27/2012, 08:09 AM   #22
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Moua View Post
Thanks for sharing your insight.


I can see where having springs are too stiff / too much spring pressure for smaller cams would cause premature wear.


This is my thought process though.. (not sure if it makes sense or is correct) lol

1) when using aftermarket cams & "matching" valvesprings, it doesn't mean that you're some how "correcting" wear on the rockers back to what it would be with stock cams/valvesprings.

2) since guys who mod there cars with bigger cams more than likely use them for racing, wear is going to occur... it's all about a matter of wear rate (which it's too hard to accurate collect data cause too many variable with setups, usage, installation ect).

3) wear is unavoidable for racing applications. It's nice to know a motor will last say 50K of daily driving / weekend racing... but the reality is that most heads will need to be rebuild & inspected say every 10K or so to check for wear.

therefore, I'm not 100% sold that people NEED or SHOULD buy matching valvesprings for their cam. I try to be cost effective but safe as possible, and I would imagine there should be a middle ground of valvespring which are stiff enough to use on a "wider" range of cams and not fall into the marketing of some companies....


Is there a flaw in my thinking ?
To your comments...

1.) You are right, you arent correcting for any wear at all, thats impossible to do with a stiffer spring. What you are ensuring is that the spring will be able to handle the lift of the cam and operate in a safe range that will get the most life out of it. You can operate outside that range, but the downfall will always be shorter life of the parts.

2.) Yes wear will always be there and thats something you just have to live with with a race car and doing what we do. Yes there are a ton of variables but your best bet is to start with parts designed around each other, no sense in throwing another "variable" into the equation.

3.) Yes again wear will always be there. If you are racing your car on a more serious level then you are probably doing the preventative maintence things and checks every so often to make sure things are in check. More often than not though the typical customer does not and when something goes wrong the finger is often pointed at the manufacturers of the parts that ended up in the bottom of their oil pans


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Old 04/27/2012, 01:54 PM   #23
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

great info...

yeah i completely agree about how majority of people will not do the regular maintance of checking their valvetrain after a few event & also about mixing maxing spring/retainers between brands.



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Old 04/27/2012, 07:17 PM   #24
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

thank you guys good info. Felt like I learned something here.

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Old 04/27/2012, 08:58 PM   #25
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Default Re: JordanTuned - B18C5

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thank you guys good info. Felt like I learned something here.
Good, now go do work son..
jk


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